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00:00:08: Welcome to a new episode of MENA Talk.

00:00:10: My name is Jasmine Arimi, I'm a journalist at MENA Watch and today i am joined by Shokmua Med from Vadi an organization in Iraqi Kurdistan which have the ground for combat female genital mutilation also known as FGM.

00:00:27: so before we start with quick content notes In this episode we will be talking about FGM, a topic that can be difficult and distressing.

00:00:36: So please be careful while you're listening!

00:00:40: Thank you for joining us Shok.

00:00:43: Could you briefly introduce yourself to work from Wadi?

00:00:55: adjoining Wadi, I learned that there is something called female genital mutilation in the community and society.

00:01:08: It was really scary and horrifying to learn you grew up into a society where such horrific things have happened.

00:01:18: somehow.

00:01:18: as a girl i was scared and didn't experience anything like this.

00:01:24: Going back to the work of Wadi, introducing Wadi.

00:01:28: Wadi is a German Iraqi organization And it has been operating since ninety-two.

00:01:35: So Wadi is even older than me.

00:01:37: They started mostly working on construction and rebuilding of buildings, old buildings and helping hospitals and helping women and children in those...in the areas in Baghdad In Amara central and south of Iraq.

00:01:53: Then because of regime pressure at that time people were advising them to come to the Iraqi..to Kurdistan region which is somehow considered a little bit more free area that you can work on.

00:02:06: So they started working on providing health awareness and health programs to women and children in the rural areas, as we were working on those areas our local teams.

00:02:30: conditions like this, situations that women were complaining a lot especially about their intimate relationship.

00:02:38: So at the time it was not really named FGM so we weren't specifically sure if this is FGM or not.

00:02:46: but we became completely sure when one time our team members visited kindergarten And then they noticed that a significant number of little girls were not present in the daycare.

00:03:04: They started questioning why this is happening so, and found out these girls had been taken collectively to FGM for their practice point.

00:03:17: that Wadi started to really seriously start delving into this topic and how approach it considering is a very, very conservative topic at the time.

00:03:27: I'm talking somewhere closer to two thousand three-two thousand four which we officially started working on.

00:03:34: so beside from these...from the FGM program Wadi's are very vast organization because we work.

00:03:43: multiple other topics related domestic violence related to environment,

00:03:50: economic

00:03:51: empowerment and livelihood.

00:03:53: All of these things are all related with each other so they're interconnected in this project as well as helping women become more visible in the society from the signature work of Wadi.

00:04:17: We started making research in those areas that I mentioned, called Ghermian area and then we found out that seventy-four percent women were actually cut into these areas.

00:04:32: so we had villages rural areas where there was a hundred percent.

00:04:37: So it really crazy!

00:04:39: And then the Ministry for Health at that time Obviously, they were very angered about these numbers and this is not real because we already alert the human rights watch with those numbers.

00:04:54: They also decided as a government officially to come on board.

00:05:03: We ended up with a number of forty two percent officially in the Kurdistan region.

00:05:08: So this was so official.

00:05:09: Number that we always worked on as Wadi, as well like fast forward This number to twenty eighteen.

00:05:15: That way we managed too With a lot of significant work To reduce their number to three percent.

00:05:23: Wadi also worked on a law that this is actually.

00:05:27: this practice Is now banned by law?

00:05:33: How did you personally become involved in the fight against FGM?

00:05:37: Was it just at your work, at Wadi and was that like a personal topic for you.

00:05:44: To be honest its through my work.

00:05:47: I was freshly graduated when i joined Wadi And I have never heard about this practice before And before joining Wadi, once I saw one of these commercial spots that they were doing at the time on FGM and in a TV channel.

00:06:09: It was like...I really didn't understand what exactly this is or if it's even real?

00:06:16: So when i joined Wadi I joined as an interpreter translator at that time and all these reports were coming, like with all the horrific stories.

00:06:27: And it was really horrifying!

00:06:29: Yeah...I think this is a real understanding of how I don't know my society so well.

00:06:36: To go into depth can you explain to listeners in the West which maybe some even do not know about the practice of FGM?

00:06:47: What exactly is female genital mutilation?

00:06:50: To put it shortly, I mean FGM is the harm of that genitalia area with any means.

00:07:01: And if there's scratching cutting anything off those sorts to the genitalial female gender area especially because FGM has their types.

00:07:11: so we have type one which is cutting or scratching pieces of the clitoris.

00:07:17: And then we have type two, which is a little bit from top part to bottom and also some parts of the labia majora and minora.

00:07:29: Then there's third and fourth types called the phyronic type that are much more severe than they cut off everything completely.

00:07:39: They call it the pharaonic because its mostly practiced in a pharaonic era and also like, mostly in Egypt than African countries.

00:07:49: So for us from the ones that we have worked with We only had so far type one most commonly And In some cases type two.

00:08:01: How widespread is FGM?

00:08:02: In regions where you work especially in Iraqi Kurdistan?

00:08:05: You were talking about like forty-two percent Officially.

00:08:09: Is It Like a little bit more.

00:08:11: To be honest with you, I think at that time like i'm talking twenty four back in twenty-four the official number was uh forty two percent.

00:08:21: for the ministry of health we obviously thing.

00:08:24: this is what's.

00:08:25: this number wasn't at that time.

00:08:29: But because it's an official number, we sticked with the official numbers.

00:08:32: however We believe this was much more widespread.

00:08:37: but if you are talking about right now With all of these consistent work which has been done for FGM It has significantly reduced and is not completely finished.

00:08:51: I would say now because it's banned by law, there are people who are looking for a midwife or somebody to do it.

00:08:59: For them were usually an older woman To the act.

00:09:04: however they're finding difficulty in having someone doing this practice Because you know that they will be jailed.

00:09:12: They'll going legal consequences.

00:09:16: that comes with them.

00:09:17: How about the younger generations?

00:09:19: Are they are thinking differently now, um... About FGM- The Younger Mothers and Fathers?

00:09:24: Uh

00:09:25: mostly.. They do!

00:09:26: Mostly there obviously not in favor of doing FGM because uh Because a lot of times their mothers cut themselves.

00:09:35: So then know how this feels like.

00:09:39: so A lot is obviously not with it And don't want to do

00:09:42: it somehow

00:09:43: still wants to do it and they are not sure on the religious aspect.

00:09:48: They don't know if they're doing something right by not cutting their daughter.

00:09:55: or mostly afraid of societal pressure, let's say this inter-family pressure from in laws for example.

00:10:06: all these things formed this type of pressure on the younger generation, but I'm really happy to report that a lot of them are very brave and they don't fall into that pressure.

00:10:21: So when we talk about mothers which were undergoing cutting itself... When we talk now about like the short-term physical consequences for girls who undergo FGM, what are the consequences?

00:10:35: Short

00:10:36: term on our physical aspect you have cutting that happens.

00:10:42: So a lot of times there is severe bleeding.

00:10:46: that happens There's wounding and most often they The things, the tools that are used to perform the act they're not sanitized.

00:10:59: They use razors in some point knives or scissors or tweezers so all of them aren't really clean and hygienic And also this practice is done mostly with groups So it's cut by the same razor as others.

00:11:18: a lot the girls have infections, like severe infections blood infections and also skin reactions many of these things.

00:11:32: And on psychological note there is a lot of shock factor that happens actually in case.

00:11:43: long time ago when we were working or reporting on them this little girl almost became mute Because of the shock that happened, maybe you can imagine like this scenario.

00:11:56: This little girl many women are holding her.

00:11:59: she is screaming.

00:12:01: it's a really scary thing for anyone to happen especially a little girl and alot times its mother who enables them And many of the times, their mother tricks them.

00:12:14: They are like if you do this I will get to go and buy your toys.

00:12:23: We always talk about it.

00:12:25: we say that FGM is first betrayal a woman or female experience in her life.

00:12:31: It comes through the closest person ever which was his mother In itself its conditioning This girl

00:12:41: for

00:12:42: accepting domestic violence in the future because this already happened to them.

00:12:47: They were already betrayed by their mother.

00:12:50: So it affects family, relation and your perspective of a relationship.

00:12:55: I mean also talking about long-term.

00:12:59: this little girl grows up with feeling of violation going closer, like starting puberty and all of that.

00:13:11: there's gonna be an effect on their ministerial health.

00:13:15: And they're cycles.

00:13:19: when they get married, it becomes the number one issue with her husband on a sexual relations because affects them so much and also is not just physical side.

00:13:30: It's psychological as well.

00:13:33: something extremely dangerous happened to you as lady And considering that there isn't really good communication between families or between a husband and wife so imagine going through this, not being able to speak with your husband.

00:13:55: Your husband is not understanding the situation.

00:13:58: So all of these are like a recipe for issues of domestic violence.

00:14:04: that's happening in many cases.

00:14:07: Issues such as a second marriage or a second life.

00:14:11: that always occurs.

00:14:13: All those things are interrelated together.

00:14:16: Like I said, on the psychological note it leaves a life-long effect of women because one woman told me she's really afraid of that night time to come.

00:14:27: Because She knows she has be with her husband and does not want that!

00:14:31: She feels like she is raped everytime Her husband tries anything with him And his husband doesn't understand why my wife is cold towards them.

00:14:40: They think they are hating him.

00:14:42: So you can see where all these all these different emotions and mixed together, untreated.

00:14:49: It leaves a really terrible mark on women short-term or long term.

00:14:55: How painful is childbirth when women were cut?

00:15:00: Actually, for that one a lot of women report to us like the ones who are cut.

00:15:05: That they had difficulty in conceiving.

00:15:07: and we have also cases that In the event over childbirth They were not cut.

00:15:13: but at that time they asked their midwife to be cut Like while giving birth.

00:15:19: So in one time another person, another midwife told us that this lady came to give birth at the midwife and then their mother-in-law was with her And they saw she wasn't cut.

00:15:31: They asked a midwife to cut her.

00:15:33: At least it's a question.

00:15:35: if someone is eighteen or above That's an consenting adult Which is not okay in any circumstances, but on a legal side.

00:15:48: This is a consenting adult But it does affect the pregnancy.

00:15:54: It doesn't affect conceiving of children because its majorly affecting though health Of the vagina and the womb.

00:16:02: all these things.

00:16:03: what cultural or social beliefs are dare to justify FGM?

00:16:09: first of All there's that religious aspect that according to one of the scholars in Islam religion, FGM should be done.

00:16:23: And it's based on a hadith or part which is not even correct.

00:16:29: like long time ago something happened and then Prophet Muhammad went with this lady he saw she was cutting women.

00:16:36: He told her its best just scratch the surface because It's not good for women.

00:16:44: So this happened, and they... This was confirmed that it is not correct hadith in Cairo University.

00:16:55: And we confirm this.

00:16:57: We have these in booklets In all our materials.

00:17:02: That this isn't correct.

00:17:03: However, this still became widespread through the people The religious leaders who really didn't understand, or let's say don't want to understand.

00:17:13: They spread this message to the people so that religious leaders in these villages and rural areas played a crucial part because in some areas they were encouraging women to do it.

00:17:26: all of them did and those who did not, they had to go under that pressure because everybody else was doing it.

00:17:32: And there were pressurized by on the religious aspect as well.

00:17:36: so They said if this girl is not cut everything all of water she brings and all the kufud She gives you are haram and prohibited to eat take or have anything from her beside them will be like excuse my language, she will be a whore because she is unable to control herself around men and all of these talks.

00:17:59: So together they shaped the religious pressure in order.

00:18:11: peer pressure became the number one point that all women in my family are doing it and if I don't do my daughter then she is going to be an outcast.

00:18:21: So, to explain a little bit more of your daily work what concrete strategies does Wadi... used to fight FGM?

00:18:30: Well, Wadi mainly works on combating FGM via awareness seminars.

00:18:36: So we meet groups of women in the rural areas where our team members... We have two team members.

00:18:44: one is a lawyer and one as social worker And they are meeting with these women.

00:18:49: The Social Worker talks about cultural health aspect of FGM why it should not be done and what are the consequences on all of that.

00:19:01: And also, The Lawyer talks about the law which I mentioned earlier.

00:19:05: this is That was released in twenty eleven that officially also bans female genital mutilation.

00:19:15: So they talk about that law.

00:19:17: They talked about all the consequences and oh, all the different situations that are considered FGM.

00:19:24: And-and Also be along with them to talk about other forms of domestic violence child marriage The women's right for filing lawsuit How would you do?

00:19:37: covered in those seminars.

00:19:39: And these seminars are done like four times a week, different areas and usually we do the seminars that enable women to spread this message through their acquaintances as well.

00:19:53: so our brochures and print materials they're all containing various kinds of information.

00:20:00: We ask them if you hear about cases from FGM that they let us know, and then we will go to these areas and make seminars in those areas as well.

00:20:14: We also did many trainings for midwives who have a license—they are officially licensed on the law especially —that they know by law that FGM is a practice prohibited by law.

00:20:28: so if they do anything like it obviously would be jailed taken from them.

00:20:35: So they also end up like spreading the messages and taking various professional trainings on those topics as

00:20:43: well.".

00:20:44: How do you involve men, religious leaders in this process when going there to rural areas or villages?

00:20:54: For us, we talk about our female coordinators and also like the team members.

00:21:00: They also sit with men and talk about their various topics of domestic violence but within that they will discuss a female genital mutilation.

00:21:10: I want to say this practice is mostly very women oriented.

00:21:16: So the victims are women and ones who enable it, they're women.

00:21:20: so men aren't really part of this equation.

00:21:25: obviously when they don't want to or like it we said no but our wives didn't support us because we wouldn't have the same issues that we had with them.

00:21:38: So, it majorly affects that.

00:21:41: They are supportive of really combating FGM and actually surprisingly there also many questions for men as well to learn about their health and their reproductive health.

00:21:55: so they asked us for programs like this one too.

00:21:59: That came with such a nice surprise at the end wanting to learn more about their bodies and that in itself I think it's a good breakthrough with men considering how sensitive, closed off these communities.

00:22:19: As for religious leaders we have constant connections with the Ministry of Religious Affairs The religious leaders.

00:22:28: we have done several trainings and several meetings coordination Meetings with them about especially their Friday speeches because that's when most people are gathering in their masks.

00:22:40: So, we encourage a lot to talk about not exactly like specifically FGM but also talked About domestic violence and harming women.

00:22:50: And how this is not really part of Islam?

00:22:55: In some parts, some were... Let's say helpful and are doing their part, but obviously not all of them Are supporting these things.

00:23:04: And there is a lot of political and different motives behind those things.

00:23:09: Maybe it s not the best to go through in this interview But There was other factors that affects That.

00:23:18: Through the Ministry Of Religious Affairs They have some sort of official fatwa which we pressured them so much to do, but they only released a vague statement saying that if an act is more harmful than good then it should not be done.

00:23:40: We are aiming for a statement that says no, like you cannot do it.

00:23:44: This is haram.

00:23:45: but Like I said there's a lot of argument back and forth That this hadith was already existing And obviously A lot of them say this not true.

00:23:54: So we're kind left on that.

00:23:56: But still in connections There isn't any denying.

00:23:59: they have really major role In communities.

00:24:03: They also now look at villages which declared themselves FGM free.

00:24:09: How does the process work, how do you know about it?

00:24:12: We have twelve villages that declared themselves FGM-free.

00:24:16: This process came through month after month of work And previously in the previous years we also worked with them through different projects.

00:24:25: These villages like they received almost daily trainings and daily seminars on these topics, how it should not be done?

00:24:34: What can you do to help out?

00:24:36: Not just on FGM but various other topics related to domestic violence and their rights.

00:24:42: so all of this things were ready for us to say that there are FGM free and will become an advocate in their areas, in the surrounding area.

00:24:53: And they had this like a very big billboard plate infront of there villages declaring this village FGM free and maybe you can imagine it that saying these things having written in front your village means something.

00:25:13: It's mean as if this is something big for villagers admitting and now they are free from it.

00:25:20: They're working for something more, so in exchange to saying those things we did various projects for all of these villages.

00:25:32: like some had water issues, wanted their school supplies... We have a very long-standing agreement with one to send their daughters to school, because they were sending the boys to secondary schools but not girls.

00:25:53: Because it was too far so we managed to provide them with transportation and all of those girls also finished school in that village as well.

00:26:08: For us, this was like a very important coordination because all of the villages in the surrounding areas before some Of them they were not even ready to for our teams to go and discuss FGM.

00:26:23: But when they saw that their neighboring village where brave?

00:26:26: And they talked about it.

00:26:28: They there are no problems Like we're afraid social issues.

00:26:32: Do you work with international organizations or NGOs which are supporting your work in Iraqi Kurdistan?

00:26:38: Yes, we work with Hadlin Alliance on FGM.

00:26:42: We did a major research with them and worked with Dutch Foreign Ministry in FGM.

00:26:48: also the German consulates here... ...we have really good relations with the consulates there.

00:26:53: Also we had projects for the US State Department before And they are in contact with the BMZ in Germany.

00:27:01: They're supporting many of our project as well but mostly related to environment awareness that are not specifically on FGM.

00:27:10: Do

00:27:10: you think it's important to have the connections, like is it for the FGM process?

00:27:17: Important to have international backup?

00:27:20: Absolutely!

00:27:20: I think its really important because having those International Connections and Backups they actually empower organizations working here kind of put some sort of a pressure on the government here to really implement those laws and, uh... really follow through with especially related to FGM.

00:27:44: To follow-through in these cases.

00:27:47: Unfortunately so far we have the law which is great And it did a great part in reducing The acts.

00:27:53: however also So far not one case has been prosecuted.

00:27:59: Only two cases have been, there was like an arrest case in the police station.

00:28:05: And then because we here... We had this tribal agreement that they say Because this woman is old so it's better not to prosecute.

00:28:14: Just forgive her It happened long time ago.

00:28:17: So you know They fall into their pressure and go with a tribal route.

00:28:23: So don't go for full prosecution.

00:28:27: That somethings always want the government that this tribal thing is eliminated from the law and that the cases of prosecution does happen.

00:28:37: Yes, thank you a lot for those valuable insights.

00:28:40: how can individuals from Europe and private people like me support your work?

00:28:48: Well we have our website over there tons of information, tons of stories and things that you would like to read about.

00:28:59: And I just want to mention for the Combating FGM program we are now in this second phase.

00:29:06: First one was awareness.

00:29:08: Now, second is living with FGM because the act has been reduced significantly.

00:29:13: but then we have thousands of women who are cut and are living long-life consequences.

00:29:19: so we're working in various groups now on reaching what health problems are.

00:29:26: how can you help them?

00:29:27: How to find experts that are helping women especially under sexual aspects.

00:29:33: So if you read about these things these programs of course need your support.

00:29:38: so we there is.

00:29:41: you can always support us through the website.

00:29:43: all the information are there.

00:29:44: So I hope people really do reach out and for as any sort of visibility for this program's important, they're one step ahead into making their life better.

00:29:57: We will as well link everything in the text underneath the interview.

00:30:03: Thank you!

00:30:03: That was Project Coordinator Shukmaa Matramaryaki Kurdistan, thank-you for your time and joining us here on MENA Talk.

00:30:13: My name is Jasmine Arimi.

00:30:14: Stay tuned for more conversations across the Middle East here at MENA Watch.

00:30:19: There you will

00:30:20: find daily news, current reports and extensive research-based background analysis on the history of the MENA region.