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00:00:08: Welcome to a new episode of MENA Talk.

00:00:10: My name is Yasmin Aremi, I'm a journalist at MENA Watch and my guest today is Afna Asbaham, former Israeli intelligence officer and founder of the Intelligence Heritage Center's Museum in Israel.

00:00:24: Nice to have you here!

00:00:29: Could you briefly introduce yourself to our audience and tell a bit about your path?

00:00:36: So I'm a former Mossad officer, when I retired.

00:00:41: When i turned to fifty years old...I am sixty-one years old today!

00:00:45: And I retired eleven years ago.

00:00:47: ...and started with the Mossads as young soldier..when was nineteen years old.

00:00:54: that worked for them in Lebanon and after I finished my military service, during the military service i became an officer also.

00:01:06: And only two days after I finish my military services ,I was twenty-two years old .

00:01:12: I started working with the Mossad and worked for twenty eight year more than fifty different countries around world in ten years which is amazing!

00:01:25: So here to share some stories.

00:01:28: Looking back, what did you learn in your early years and service that stayed with you now like the most and strongly?

00:01:38: So before you reach the Mossad.

00:01:41: You don't know anything about spy.

00:01:46: I'm sure that you saw James Bond films And do think that... ...you're gonna have a Jaguar nice suit and you became a pilot, and traveled all over the world.

00:01:59: And party all the time but... The real life are very grey.

00:02:06: It's very hard sometimes dangerous But it is something important to defend your country.

00:02:16: So

00:02:17: its like military service.

00:02:18: actually

00:02:20: You have a background in Iraq and is rooted in the story of Operation Ezra on Nimia.

00:02:27: How has the heritage shaped your sense of identity, history also intelligence?

00:02:33: So it's... It's good question because the fact that the Mossad was one of the best spy agency in the world is reason we came from different places.

00:02:45: as you mentioned my family come from Iraq.

00:02:49: We look Iraqi dark skin, we speak Arabic at home.

00:02:55: And the languages in Mossad are like weapons.

00:02:59: if you speak different languages it's one of most important thing and also your appearance.

00:03:06: think about ten Japanese or ten Chinese coming to operation in South America.

00:03:14: they all look the same.

00:03:16: people immediately find a difference.

00:03:19: but If I travel in South America, it looks like maybe someone from Spain or Italy and the story of Jewish people is that we came all over the world.

00:03:32: That's why... We can hide ourselves in a better way!

00:03:36: We have blue eyes, black eyes, brown eyes, blonde, dark... We even have Ethiopian Jews.

00:03:46: so if there was an operation in Africa It's European agent, you see?

00:03:51: Normally the public have like a big misconception about Mossad.

00:03:56: What would he say is like the biggest misconception You heard about

00:04:00: there was no I mean it's not fun to fly all the time and two be three days in Paris And then four nights In London.

00:04:11: i mean its not vacation It's a very hard work.

00:04:21: So at the end of day, from outside it looks like wow you have wonderful job You live in five-star hotels but there is lot pressure.

00:04:36: Sometimes its dangerous All time need to keep secrets and use different names.

00:04:45: sometimes You cannot call your family, you can not call directly to your country because... ...you're not allowed do it.

00:04:57: So its very hard!

00:04:59: It's a great life

00:05:01: and you are really long time away from your family & relatives I guess as well?

00:05:07: The joke in the Mossad is that.. ..you enter into the Mossads single and you retired.

00:05:13: divorce And this also happened with me Because.... small kids and you're far away from home, your wife she's taking care about the kids but you are far away.

00:05:26: You cannot help her.

00:05:28: so this is their results.

00:05:30: besides of your work at Mossad, you became involved in founding a museum and creating the Museum Of Intelligence And Special Functions which is also I guess super exciting.

00:05:44: Why was it important to bring intelligence history into public?

00:05:51: So actually i'm not historian but... ...i collect crazy things.

00:05:59: I remember myself buying things also in the flea market in Frankfurt along, along the river from time to time when they came to Germany.

00:06:12: So i'm a collector and When I come to the Mossad it found out that there is A lot of original objects That the agents use different operations And no one keep them.

00:06:28: We keep the documents.

00:06:30: Okay, we must keep the document but there is no any rule that you have to save original objects like guns communication systems fake passports.

00:06:46: So I started to build a big collection and after years i established The first spy museum in Israel the Mossad Museum.

00:06:59: I also became a professional curator and I learned in Tel Aviv University.

00:07:07: And today, after I retired one of my companies that i own is special company which produces metals.

00:07:18: this by the way it's not a circle as you see.

00:07:24: its not a coin It's a special metal Looks like a pager and it's cool.

00:07:29: Of course from the green beeper operation that I'm sure you heard about it.

00:07:35: so, uh i think That we can.

00:07:39: We can also learn form.

00:07:41: It's not only the heritage in the history.

00:07:44: You can learn A lot of how to Think outside The box How To be creative?

00:07:51: How to think.

00:07:52: difference have to think or opposite.

00:07:55: And if it Can Also Help you In Your Life or in your business if you have the skills of spy, You can use them also every day life.

00:08:07: You know what?

00:08:07: Also for dating after divorce I needed to make some connections with bars so sometimes i used a spy skill.

00:08:21: when you turn secret operations into exhibitions in the museum, how did you decide what can be shown?

00:08:29: What must remain classified untold.

00:08:32: I guess it's super exciting because we can't even imagine...

00:08:38: So usually eighty percent of this story all the Mossad employees see but sometimes The rest of twenty percent You cannot show it to everyone because the museum in the Mossad is a public area.

00:08:57: So everybody can see some of my exhibition, for example Operation Finale The Capture Of Eichmann.

00:09:04: I came twice to Germany and Munich.

00:09:09: In Munich we showed an exhibit almost eight months ago at the Egyptian Art History Museum.

00:09:20: It was a huge exhibition.

00:09:23: We translated everything to German, and we brought original objects from the operation for example The real Leica camera that were used To take pictures of Eichmann before they capture.

00:09:39: And there is also another exhibition I made about Operation Entebbe, the hijack plan Fifty years ago in Uganda And it was one of the most famous and successful command operation ever that Israel released, The Hostages in Ntabah.

00:10:00: So I also made this exhibition... ...and I've made a bigger exhibition outside the Mossad.

00:10:06: Of course you cannot show everything when you take the exhibit outside.

00:10:10: You have to decide if there is things that can not be shown?

00:10:15: You need permission.

00:10:17: But as I told you, eighty percent is show and it's enough.

00:10:21: As you said on mention that you created exhibitions about Adolf Eichmann and Operation at Ebbe why do these two

00:10:34: operations still resonate strongly today?

00:10:36: So operation finale the capture of Eichman.

00:10:40: The name of the exhibit in Germany was how to catch a Nazi.

00:10:45: It's important because the Eichmann trial.

00:10:50: The Eichman trial was and still very, very important.

00:10:54: it was a turning point in Israel when Holocaust survivors start talking about the holocaust .It was first time that we wrote the book of the Holocaust.

00:11:06: We spoke about it ,we brought witnesses The trial, we couldn't do the trial without capturing Eichmann.

00:11:16: So that's why...the operation was so important and in my exhibition you can see the capture And You Can See Also The Trial.

00:11:28: That Why It Is So Important About Ntebe.

00:11:32: it is really releasing innocent people who became hostages by the way And after the terrorists released non-Israeli passengers, we still needed to rescue and release one other than five hostages.

00:11:54: It was a big success because unfortunately we lost Yonin Netanyahu, commander of the elite unit.

00:12:04: We also lost four hostages three of them in the terminal, when we released the hostages.

00:12:16: And she was at a hospital and the crazy Idi Amin, President of Uganda sent people to kill her after two days.

00:12:30: But if you look about operation four thousand kilometers from Israel You are coming with six plans two hundred twenty soldiers and you come back safe, And bring everybody.

00:12:45: You lose only four or actually three hostages in one commander.

00:12:52: It's a success.

00:12:53: it is military success.

00:12:55: I know that people around the world on a military basis and armies learn about how to plan command operation.

00:13:06: It's very, very complicated operation.

00:13:09: And so I'm at exhibition and also lecturing about it.

00:13:14: Do you think when we are talking about the success of operations that a public can ever fully understand?

00:13:21: The decision-making behind operations?

00:13:23: sometimes they're judged in like real time... ...and you all under extreme pressure.

00:13:28: how is your experience with that?

00:13:31: Sometimes if I understood the question, sometimes when you plan an operation under pressure You have only a few days and it shows that you can make great operations without planning too much.

00:13:48: Sometimes we do something very fast.

00:13:52: The fact is there are two or three days and then your deadline And you learn from operations even after fifty years.

00:14:02: You can learn about how to think outside the box and How to give a chance to any sometimes stupid or too creative idea.

00:14:18: And if you know the past, you can learn from the past.

00:14:21: I Can give you like an example.

00:14:26: Let me show your here in my collection.

00:14:29: i have a radio okay?

00:14:30: See this radio.

00:14:32: By the way, if you don't have energy or battery You can okay.

00:14:38: You can load it with this manual now in this radio.

00:14:44: This is a Stupid radio simple radio?

00:14:49: You can listen to radio stations.

00:14:52: Okay So let's say that there is an in Germany and radio station that play Every one hour at the news and playing music German music, all the day.

00:15:06: The Mossad used Israeli radio stations to transfer messages to agents by playing a particular song.

00:15:20: So for example we told one of our agents that was in Iraq.

00:15:28: even today it's an enemy country to Israel.

00:15:30: We told him

00:15:32: on

00:15:33: August fourteen You have to turn on your radio at seven a.m.. And we are going to play as song in Arabic and the meaning of this that The name of the song is welcome Welcome.

00:15:47: it means If you hear these songs, you Have a green light to take off with Your miqt-one one Russian jet and fly directly from Iraq.

00:16:01: just escape from Iraq fly directly to Israel safely and you can land in our Israeli military base, Israeli Air Force Base.

00:16:12: Okay?

00:16:13: So this is a way that it's one-way connection or communication that you broadcast the song And an agent can listen on radio.

00:16:22: No one can locate him.

00:16:25: You don't know.

00:16:26: he sits at home listening to the radio.

00:16:29: It's very normal for them And this is the way that we also use after the Holocaust, when we smuggle Holocaust survivors to Israel in a legal way with ships.

00:16:45: We didn't have communication systems so we used also to play songs and we got six songs of different meaning.

00:16:55: The captain knew if he can hear these.

00:16:59: This song, it means escape and this song.

00:17:02: It means go to the North And The other song is Go To The South So you can navigate with the songs.

00:17:10: Okay?

00:17:11: Do You Like The Idea?

00:17:12: That's Impressive!

00:17:15: That's Very Impressive.

00:17:17: Today I'm also Consulting Spy Films In Hollywood so i am using these When Im Teaching The Actors Or I Am Working With The Directors I can teach them how to do it right, because i know the history.

00:17:36: So you could use their history even for operations in this modern

00:17:44: life.".

00:17:46: So usually

00:17:58: we start with the script, so when I'm consulting films there is someone else that wrote this script and sometimes there are mistakes and cliches.

00:18:11: And it's too late to change the script.

00:18:15: Usually what i am doing is changing things that cameras see even if you don't change text what the cameras see.

00:18:31: For example, it's all about small details.

00:18:37: if you have ten agents that are flying from different places coming to Argentina To capture Eichmann It doesn't make sense.

00:18:48: they will come together and there'll be together.

00:18:51: They will sit together And then we can with Air France From Paris to Buenos Aires.

00:18:59: So you need to show, I saw that they are going use tags for suitcases.

00:19:08: All of them a vintage tag from the fifties that belong to Air France.

00:19:14: and I thought the director we should use different airlines let's say Lufthansa Sabena And other companies.

00:19:27: I got the right list of companies that they use in the real operation.

00:19:31: Because, In my exhibition i get original tickets.

00:19:34: so thats why i could know The name of the company And we shot scene again with the right stickers to show them from different places and why it came from different place.

00:19:50: because They come with fake passports from different countries that match the languages they can speak.

00:19:59: So if someone grew up in Austria, he came with a German passport because it could speak German but he flew to Paris by himself.

00:20:10: and someone who grew-up in Romania He flew to London And from London he came by himself to Argentina.

00:20:18: so this is things I'm changing in fields.

00:20:25: It works very well, and I'm also don't forget.

00:20:28: I am playing cameo in this film.

00:20:29: you can find me In one or two scenes.

00:20:32: which films?

00:20:34: For example operation finale.

00:20:36: You can file me there watch again the film And you can fine me.

00:20:41: There is a scene in a cafe.

00:20:42: i'm playing with.

00:20:43: oscar asked Oscar Isaac we are playing cars in a café.

00:20:48: Okay what's the film in netflix?

00:20:51: Spice stories remain actually powerful in the pop culture, popular culture.

00:20:57: You told us that real work is more a little bit of hard way and slow exhausting as well.

00:21:07: Do you think like movie industry is displaying it well?

00:21:12: And understanding the real work of intelligence service?

00:21:17: No I think even today directors and producers, screenwriters doing the same mistakes because they grew up so James Bond.

00:21:33: James Bond is not real life.

00:21:35: it's opposite Because if agent can speak languages he will not show it And James Bond shows that you understand Russian.

00:21:44: for example We don't use fancy cars Okay, we use a local gray popular car.

00:21:54: We don't use red shining Viagra okay?

00:22:02: And we don't wear suits with bow tie ok?

00:22:08: We buy regular clothes in the same country.

00:22:13: so sometimes you need to teach You need to change sometimes it's too late, but you need to show.

00:22:23: And this is the very special things that I'm doing with producers all over the world.

00:22:34: of course intelligence services not flashy and fashion so that everyone can find two people its more in underground saying like the public image.

00:22:45: that makes sense.

00:22:46: When films and exhibitions influence society in their understanding of Israel's security history, is it like... ...that you think movies are displaying Israel intelligence security service better than official institutions or media?

00:23:05: First off I think we have a problem with the media because we don't explain ourselves.

00:23:12: You can see the war that started, the massacre from October seven.

00:23:20: Suddenly people from Gaza attacked Israel and killed twelve hundred in the same day.

00:23:30: Wrapped women and took two hundred fifty more than one hundred fifty hostages.

00:23:41: We have a very big problem with explaining this, because in most places.

00:23:46: on TV they don't see the real narrative.

00:23:53: But in films it depends if something like... If its television series that we are doing in Israel It's very accurate and close to their story Because people behind these television shows came from the same unit.

00:24:13: They served in the same units, so it's almost a doco.

00:24:21: Now as I told you about spy films around world there was lot of mistakes.

00:24:27: Sometimes they have people that consult them sometimes take book form.

00:24:32: CIA wrote So its easier for them.

00:24:37: But There is big gap between true story and real story in the spy stories and also on news.

00:24:45: But when we look a little bit into the past, people talk about security intelligence and use of force.

00:24:54: what lessons from Mossad operations remain relevant to real life?

00:25:00: I

00:25:02: think that's where you found out during these years.

00:25:07: most times We didn't take any responsibility for operations.

00:25:13: I can tell you, after the massacre on... in Munich in the Olympics when we lost eleven of our members, eleven Israeli delegation, eleven members And the Prime Minister, Golden Mayor decided that Mossad will find people responsible and kill them.

00:25:45: The Mossad made several operations came for example to Paris and found terrorists killed him and disappeared.

00:25:58: We didn't take any responsibility.

00:26:03: But today, I think that we find out if you take responsibility your enemy can be more afraid from you.

00:26:15: They know your ability and in most of the time they know only Israelis are able to do this kind.

00:26:25: someone that stays in a room, hotel.

00:26:31: This and this room on the side of the room to find and kill only him because he is terrorists who are buying weapons against us or our families or country.

00:26:47: so suddenly you wake up at morning and hear it's gone and no one take responsibility.

00:26:55: But today we take the responsibility in the green people, for example if you check on YouTube it can find interviews with Mossad agents that took part in the Green People operation.

00:27:10: so this is a new policy where they take responsibility but also talk about it.

00:27:16: So did other militaries learn your kind of work especially for

00:27:22: counter-terrorism?

00:27:23: also cooperate with different... Of course, we the Austrian and German.

00:27:30: We cooperate with military intelligence And help each other.

00:27:35: Would you say that they are listening enough to the Mozart?

00:27:38: Well I think for them it's like a music.

00:27:42: They listen to their music because they learn Always want to learn and take ideas.

00:27:49: If you come with the right ideas, you can save life.

00:27:53: We talked about that.

00:27:55: journalists sometimes in the media is mixing up a little bit of stories and not telling like the whole picture.

00:28:03: but should journalists and also historians be especially careful when covering intelligence affairs?

00:28:09: What would you advise?

00:28:11: Think what happened on October seven.

00:28:17: The Hamas terrorist entered to Israel with the GoPro camera.

00:28:23: Okay, each one of them came with a go pro-camera And he just made videos off all their awful things that it done.

00:28:32: okay.

00:28:33: so think about That.

00:28:35: we have or most of there are video files but We cannot.

00:28:48: I mean, we use it to show the world.

00:28:52: but still even if you come with a true story they don't believe or want to believe because sometimes there is an anti-Semism journalist that just wants to talk against Israel.

00:29:10: They are not... to tell the true story or real news, they have agenda.

00:29:23: They will always like Al Jazeera!

00:29:25: The Al-Jazeera is against Israel and everything that it does... they try to interview me but I refuse because i told them everything you do is against my country.

00:29:36: It's not a real news.

00:29:39: Real News.

00:29:39: that comes with the real news.

00:29:41: You don't hide things and give fake news.

00:29:46: That´s the problem.

00:29:47: And we saw that in some places there is Arab countries, they pay a lot of money for people to talk against us.

00:30:00: You can see demonstrations sponsored by Arab countries like Qatar.

00:30:07: We are covering up... at Maina watch often about stuff like this.

00:30:10: There are also countless fake news nowadays, stories and fake social media accounts as well Also impersonating the Mossad.

00:30:18: there are stories about trained Mossad dolphins And other animals.

00:30:24: in all of these propaganda and disinformation About Israel & The Mossad How do you think Fake News Distorts people's understanding Of real intelligence work and Israel?

00:30:37: First of all, I can tell you it's not a secret that intelligence services use animals for spying and also military.

00:30:49: The Russians used dogs with bombs against the Germans.

00:30:55: They taught them they got the fold if they go under the tank when they hear the noise from the tank and they used to send them with the bomb to suicide.

00:31:10: The CIA took a cat, put inside his body microphone transmitter and antennae And their idea was to sent this cat through Russian headquarters embassy in Washington DC.

00:31:30: go between the diplomat, the Russian diplomats and they can receive conversations and transmit it back to the CIA.

00:31:45: So... And also about dolphins?

00:31:47: It's true!

00:31:48: There is a there is a true story to use the dolphins.

00:31:51: you can teach them to do things ...and I'm not going to share all the secrets but you can find in Google that you can do with animals.

00:32:08: So it's not really a fake news!

00:32:11: We keep it like this, don't go into the details... You bring a lot of life experience to your work.

00:32:19: What do you hope?

00:32:20: Visitors or readers from the museum and also at home page take away after encountering your work.

00:32:29: I think they could learn.

00:32:32: first of all they can learn the Israeli history, the Mossad history and They Can also take...they can be inspired.

00:32:41: There can Be better.

00:32:46: They can think in a creative way.

00:32:49: Sometimes.

00:32:50: sometimes If you know like two hundred different creative stories it can help You Also to solve problems.

00:33:04: I can give you a small example that i use in my everyday life when i go to buy vegetables and fruit.

00:33:13: At the beginning,i used to with list of things that need to be bought And it took me one hour...I needed spend an hour to find everything & to buy It..and then found out its better.

00:33:27: come with this list.

00:33:32: Let's say that I have too much potatoes and I also have tomatoes.

00:33:37: So, i'm just buying everything that I need except the things that they already had.

00:33:44: so it took me fifteen minutes okay?

00:33:50: Just think in opposite way.

00:33:53: And...I can tell you that in Sudan when we smuggled at European Jews with fake passport.

00:34:02: We didn't have the same pen that the Sudanian used to write names inside their passports.

00:34:11: Now, instead of trying to find how to get the same pin they use we bought two hundred Parker's pens and sent them with a different Secret Service in Germany from Africa.

00:34:28: The secret agent came and told them this is the best pens that you need to use now for your passports.

00:34:35: And they start using our pens, okay?

00:34:38: So in this way we have the same pen but actually... You are the one who supplies them with your pens.

00:34:48: This example how-to think different

00:34:52: Ink.

00:34:52: a lot for your insights into the world of intelligence.

00:34:56: If you're interested to buying The Grim Reaper, You can find it on Avner's homepage.

00:35:01: we are going to link it.

00:35:03: there is also information about movies he working and his work in general.

00:35:09: thankyou for listening to this episode of Mina Talk.

00:35:12: my name is Yasmin Arimi.

00:35:13: if you found this conversation useful don't forget to subscribe our channel activate bell.

00:35:20: follow us on social media Until next time,

00:35:41: bye!